MarketThoughts.com Home Page
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  StatisticsStatistics   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

China Crash
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MarketThoughts.com Forum Index -> The China Board
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author China Crash
BlueDaze
Experienced Poster
Experienced Poster


Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: China Crash Reply with quote

The Coming China crash
By Martin Hutchinson

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IL05Cb02.html

While the Chinese stock market, as measured by the China Securities Index 300, is down 18% since October 16, that follows a period of almost two years, since January 1, 2006, during which the CSI 300 soared 535%. Chinese economic growth is currently running at more than 11% and the big money is convinced that it will continue. At the same time, the country’s foreign exchange reserves have grown to US$1.4 trillion, the largest in the world.

A crash would appear to be imminent!

Bears on China have been common for the last decade, and their track record has not been good. To take just one unfair example, Henry Blodget, the former Internet genius, wrote in Slate in April 2005: "You've probably been daydreaming about the fortune to be made in Chinese stocks. Well, keep dreaming ... you'll eventually conclude that you could have done better selling insurance in Toledo." That was about six months before the Chinese market took off, and if anybody has made 500% on their investment by selling insurance in Toledo during that period, I haven't met him.

To see why a crash may be coming, it is worth examining the behavior of the China Investment Corporation, the US$200 billion sovereign wealth fund set up by the Chinese government in September. Now $200 billion is a fair chunk of cash; you could almost buy all but three US corporations with that (at today's prices, ExxonMobil, General Electric, Microsoft – there are four or five others including Google that barely top the bar.) Six weeks ago, the power of sovereign wealth funds was celebrated and China Investment's moves into the market were awaited with bated breath.

Well, so much for that. A third of China Investment's portfolio is to be invested in Central Huijin Investment Company, a purchaser of bad loans from the Chinese banks, and another third will recapitalize China Agricultural Bank and China Development Bank, to shape them up for privatization. About $3 billion of the fund was invested in the private equity manager Blackstone in May - that may have bought China useful political contacts, but it is now worth $2 billion. And the remainder is being invested very carefully, primarily in US Treasury securities - which are also losing money steadily in yuan terms.

The lackluster investment strategy of China Investment exposes a central flaw in the Chinese economy, its lack of a rational system of capital allocation. For more than a decade, Chinese state-owned companies have made losses and have been propped up by the banking system. Since 2004, loss-making state-owned companies have been joined by overbuilding municipalities, erecting white-elephant office blocks in attempts to turn themselves into the next Shanghai. None of these losses have resulted in bankruptcy; instead the cash flow deficits have been covered by the Chinese banks. As a result, these banks have an enormous volume of bad loans $911 billion at May 2006, according to a later-withdrawn estimate by Ernst & Young, which must surely have ballooned to $1.2 trillion to $1.3 trillion now.

That explains why China Investment is somewhat unaggressive in its international investment strategy. China's $1.4 trillion of reserves will in fact almost all be required to prop up the banking system when the inevitable liquidity crisis occurs. If the banks are to survive, China Investment will have to be followed by six more sovereign wealth funds of equal size, each of which will have to abandon its attempts to take over Exxon or Google and pour its money down domestic rat-holes.

A $1 trillion problem in subprime mortgages has caused even the US money market to seize up and has required frequent applications of sal volatile by the Fed. Since China's economy is around one fifth the size that of of the United States, the Chinese banking system's bad debt problem is in real terms about five times that of the United States, or about 40% of its gross domestic product.

We have seen this movie before; the Japanese banking system's bad debts after 1990 totaled around $1 trillion, about 30% of Japan's GDP. The result was the bursting of the 1980's bubble and a period of little or no economic growth that lasted well over a decade. Admittedly the Japanese authorities made matters worse by refusing to face up to their bad debt problem and issuing more government bonds to fund witless Keynesian public spending schemes.

Nevertheless, we can have very little confidence that the Chinese authorities, once the same problem stares them in the face, will do any better. After all, at least one of the alternative policy mixes, that tried by Herbert Hoover and the Federal Reserve in 1930-32, proved very much worse. Per capita US gross domestic product was no higher in 1940 than it had been in 1929, as in the Japanese case, but in the interval it had declined by a horrifying 28% and had recovered very slowly. If China faces the choice between a decade of stagnation, as in Japan from 1990-2003, and a decade of economic collapse, as in the United States from 1929-1940, it will rightly prefer the Japanese alternative.

It may not however have the choice. One of the factors that kept Japan out of real trouble in the 1990s was continued strong growth in the US and world economies; thus its magnificent export industries were able to continue growing, albeit at a slow rate, and provide a certain amount of traction for the economy as a whole. However, China will find it difficult to do the same, since the next decade does not seem likely to be a period of robust world growth. Far from it. The United States seems fated to endure at least a few years of very sluggish growth due to its housing market crash, and Britain appears to be in a similar mess, so even relatively robust growth in the resurgent economies of Germany and Japan may not be sufficient to keep Chinese exports growing.

At that point, China will have two alternatives. It can allow the banks to work their way out of their bad loans, condemning the domestic economy to probably a decade of little growth and extremely tight credit (high Chinese savings would alleviate this problem, but they will be trapped in the Chinese banks because the authorities foolishly do not allow Chinese citizens to invest abroad). Alternatively, it can inject more or less its entire foreign exchange reserves into the domestic banking system in order to recover its bad debts, which would allow the Chinese economy to continue expanding, but at a cost of devastatingly high inflation from the additional money pumped into the system (the $100 billion plus of Chinese bank initial public offerings carried out in 2006-07, pumped into the domestic economy, already appears to be worsening Chinese inflation and China Investment’s $130 billion will doubtless further aggravate the problem.)

We have seen societies with low economic growth, very high inequality (as China has now) and persistently high inflation; they are collectively known as Latin America. Since China also has much of the corruption that bedevils Latin America and its government lacks any genuine understanding of the free market and is increasingly dominated by special interests, it may indeed be fated to follow a Latin American growth path for the next few decades, with a tiny entrenched elite enriching itself at the expense of the disfranchised masses. That would be the worst possible outcome for the Chinese people, but it is not by any means impossible.

Many observers of the current US financial market downturn comfort themselves with the thought that the world now has more than one growth engine, and that China, with four times the US population, can because of its very high growth pull the world economy along sufficiently even when the US stalls. However, if China is about to incur the inevitable backlash from its recent debt and equity bubbles, during which practices have flourished that have no place in a well-functioning free market, then we may be entering a world in which the two main growth engines of the last decade are both broken. Growth in such a world will be truly sluggish and inflation high, as the world struggles to cope with the effects of an excess of cheap money now grown toxic.

The problem with major recessions is that they tend to produce foolish political reactions. In the United States, it seems likely that a major recession if we have one will produce resurgent protectionism and an aversion to world trade, which to the voting public will appear to have been responsible for the loss of millions of good US jobs without any corresponding gains to the living standards of the majority. Japan, bless it, remained admirably politically stable during its sluggish decade, and eventually found a leader in Junichiro Koizumi who was able to lead it back into renewed growth.

In China, there can be no assurance whatever that a populace whose living standards have suddenly stopped improving will not turn to violent nationalism and/or counterproductive economics. Since the country is not a democracy and not likely to become one, the authorities are likely to react to hardship as did Vladimir Putin to the chaos of late 1990s Russia, imposing even more draconian repression and seeking a military adventure abroad to occupy the masses of disaffected youth and distract the public from its new poverty. That too would produce a future in the West far worse than would be cased by a mere domestic recession.

Bears who weary of observing the chaos in the US financial markets can cheer themselves up by looking at China. There will be more than one source of the oncoming world downturn!

Martin Hutchinson is the author of Great Conservatives (Academica Press, 2005) - details can be found at www.greatconservatives.com.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MarketThoughts.com Forum Index -> The China Board
Author China Crash Replies
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....but if can't believe in china steel what can you believe? Throw on US Steel's result and outlook today (only days after Bloomberg featured rosy plans from Mittal (who happened to be firing already) and you have an attitude adjustment:

Quote:
Jan. 25 (Bloomberg) — Steel prices in China, the world’s
biggest producer of the metal, dropped the most in four months
last week as inventories piled up and concerns grew that the
government may curb lending.
Inventories of steel products, including holdings by
traders, producers and end users, are estimated to exceed 50
million metric tons, setting a record, said Ma Haitian, an
analyst with Beijing Antaike Information Development Co. That’s
compared with an estimated 18 million tons a year ago, he said.
NH

“Some may trim their inventories at discounted prices to
collect money before the Chinese New Year” holiday in February,
Ma said. “Speculation of interest rate hikes and other
tightening measures also added to concerns about capital
availability in the market.”
China’s growth rate in the fourth quarter accelerated at
the fastest pace since 2007, as the nation’s $586 billion
stimulus spending and record lending stoked car and property
sales. That’s raised concerns the government may increase
interest rates or take other measures to curb inflation and
limit asset bubbles.
NH

Baoshan Iron & Steel Co., the nation’s largest steelmaker,
fell 1.9 percent to 7.72 yuan at 11:29 a.m. in Shanghai trading.
Angang Steel Co. fell 1.8 percent to HK$14.42 in Hong Kong.
Chinese prices of hot-rolled coil, a benchmark product,
fell 2.2 percent last week, the biggest weekly decline since
Sept. 25, according to Antaike. Prices have gained 16 percent
since Oct. 15, the low of last year.

_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a note posted in Alphaville, seeing a buying op in china--a power which will continue to assert itself until it runs out of labor and capital. Both, I believe, may be much shorter in supply than the "far as the eye can see" consensus.

Quote:
Equities: we believe recent market weakness is a buying opportunity.
Our tactical indicators are not telling us to sell: equity sentiment and risk
appetite are at neutral levels, the 2-year yield remains below our trigger level
of 1.5% and both earnings revisions and economic surprises remain
positive; we think 2010 global GDP growth will be above consensus, at 4.3%
and expect the Fed to remain on the sidelines; EPS growth could be above
30%; the equity risk premium is 5.3%, versus our target of 4.5% and a longrun
average of 3.6%; equities have lagged high-yield by 25% over the past
year; and investors are still sceptically positioned. A pick up in US bank loan
growth or accelerating Chinese wage growth would make us more cautious.
BE

China: we would be worried if we saw economic, rather than financial,
overheating. A sign of economic overheating would be a sharp acceleration
in Chinese wage growth (as proxied by rising export prices). Currently, this is
not happening. We suspect there will be no strong pick-up in wage growth
until 2011, given 10m to 20m migrant unemployed and 6m graduates
entering the workforce. Ultimately, the China growth story does not end until
there is a shortage of labour or capital, which there is not: 300m people
could still migrate from the rural sector and China has $2.4tn of FX reserves
as well as a current account surplus of 4.8% of GDP. Moreover, there is no
obvious over-leverage: government debt is below the OECD norm and
private sector credit to GDP is in line with the OECD average.
BE

Historically, the time to sell China has been on the first interest rate rise, not
when the reserve requirement ratio starts going up – and Credit Suisse
economist, Dong Tao, believes it will be hard for the PBoC to raise rates
ahead of the Fed. Monetary conditions are still loose and bank reserves still
nearly 2%pts above the reserve requirement ratio. It is not clear to us that
there is an economy-wide property bubble: national property prices are only
up 15% yoy, according to the NDRC, and only a fifth of new bank lending is
going to property
BE

We recommend adding to metals & mining and luxury goods on dips.
Metals & mining: industrial commodity prices rise if global IP is above 3%,
and we think it will be 9% yoy by year-end; excess liquidity adds further
support to prices. Buy Xstrata, Anglo, Freeport, Thyssen, Nucor. Luxury
goods: the CAGR of discretionary consumption in China could be 20% by
2020, as the consumption share of GDP rises from 36% to 50%; luxury
goods have a unique franchise (Richemont, Swatch, LVMH).
BE

We are cautious of European capital goods: they look expensive, half of
new bank lending in China has gone to infrastructure, the Chinese
investment share of GDP has to fall and China is a growing competitive
threat. Short ABB and Atlas Copco.

_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You HAVE to be in this "space." Really?!

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2010/gb20100113_124533.htm

This has always threatened an Achilles heel for the company who's motto is "do no evil." Indeed this made a big impact on The GOOG when they ratted out some democratists earlier in their boom phase.

http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/01/researchers-identify-command-servers-behind-google-attack.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The RIO bid came and the lights are on: when does the movie start?
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/470d23e6-cf49-11dc-854a-0000779fd2ac.html
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "China Story" seems to be decaying a little more everyday. Remarkable economic effect snow is having going into New Year--which will take the pressure off. Could be setting up nice "retest" many have wanted here.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=FXI&p=D&b=5&g=0&id=p43643665539

Volume spike calls for a bottom. Look for close low (probably lower low) within the bollinger bands for buying op. This pattern did NOT occur in August--which is why I favor it now.

Why it did not, and better buy:

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=CAF&p=D&b=5&g=0&id=p43643665539
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Omen-ous? Certainly puts production in a grip. Loss of power is a reminder of just how far China hasn't come:

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7261361,00.html
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIO bid turned out to be true and not true--it's the world we live.

Pei and Chen, these are the "good guys" from the Carnegie Int. Peace Inst. The old axis of punishment vs. greed alive and well:


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b4bb0744-c88e-11dc-94a6-0000779fd2ac.htm
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIO bid exposed as "eterprising" journalist:

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2007/12/06/9434/ah-so-now-this-baosteelrio-bid-is-just-media-fabrication/
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rffrydr
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 16932
Location: Sunny California

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. As mentioned here in August:

http://www.marketthoughts.com/forum/chinas-investment-t4393,highlight,sovereign.html

You can call it a wealth fund--or you can call it by it's old-fashioned name, subsidies. Which raises the question of buybacks....but that's a completely different market.
_________________
Today is the Tomorrow you worried about Yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Please log in to view without the ad banners
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MarketThoughts.com Forum Index -> The China Board All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB