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My deepest fears and concerns.. Is re-education the answer.. |
diesel
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 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: My deepest fears and concerns.. Is re-education the answer.. |
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Henry I think you are missing a key point in that a lot of people simply aren't capable of a phd level education.
If you are one of these people and cant land some job in the government you are doomed to be a welfare drone or work menial servant-style jobs in the service sector (waitress, taxi driver etc). But then again I guess you can do what many are doing today: go into crime!
History is very clear what happens when you have a small, extremely wealthy, highly educated class and a large class of peasants that sustain the system. It collapses.....
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My deepest fears and concerns.. Is re-education the answer.. Replies |
nodoodahs
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| HenryTo wrote: | | nodoodahs wrote: | | I think the issue here is that some people (Henry? LOL) are equating a higher-level traditional college degree with both intelligence and training. |
Bill, that's the problem. I don't. But other folks (especially the recruiters, as I mentioned in the two ad hoc commentaries) are, and unfortunately, they have legimate reasons for doing so (mostly cost-cutting and self-fish reasons). I know tons of folks without advanced degrees who would run circles around those with advanced degrees any day, especially at the management level and in the finance industry.
But now, you know why I went back to get my MBA/MPP degrees. The CFA certification wasn't sufficient to convince the recruiters (to rffrydr's point, we're "overeducated" as a population, but unfortunately, we may be getting the wrong kind of education). Even a local global macro economic research firm wants to hire an MBA! An MBA does not necessarily make you a good researcher (and certainly not a good trader), but it does promise them a person that at least knows how to use excel, can manage his/her own schedule, and possess basic reading and writing skills, etc. |
This goes back to what I wrote in an early response on this thread. College acceptance is used in lieu of workplace IQ testing, since (1) IQ testing is illegal unless one can prove the test directly translates into job performance (which no employer will risk doing except in limited circumstances), and (2) colleges filter for IQ.
Actually, colleges filter for IQ and socioeconomic class, but that’s another matter. Regardless, the MBA or PhD self-filters a type of person. Could that person exist without the MBA or PhD? Yes. Could they acquire skills without the MBA or PhD? Yes. Is the MBA or PhD valuable in and of itself, for the “knowledge” transmitting while gaining it? Maybe. It’s really only valuable as a marker for the recruiters and employers who use it as a filter. From time to time, I've considered re-entering the CASACT program, for that very reason. Not because I think I'll LEARN anything useful, but because the "magic initials" might be worth something someday.
The prevalence of positions requiring certification, advanced degrees, etc., is a result of this filtering process. It’s a lazy way of legally getting what one would otherwise have to spend effort to get, i.e. a pool of qualified personnel. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work very well, as evidenced by your comment!
| HenryTo wrote: | | As for the trades, I think I need to quantify this better. While your point is well-taken, my sense is that both the number of jobs and salaries in these trades are not growing as quickly as the rest of the job market, especially those with college and advanced degrees. Even pharmacists need a decent amount of biochemistry education - and it's a very competitive process, to boot. Interestingly, the number of mechanics in the US peaked in 2001 and has remained stagnant ever since (because of better-quality American-made cars?) - and it plunged with the rest of the economy starting last year. The number of plumbers has grown consistently, but it too plunged with the rest of the economy starting in 2007. |
For me, the bottom line is recognizing the degree mills for what they are, a filter or marker for IQ and class. As such, they are useful in direct proportion to you desire to work for a large corporation that uses such markers.
Want to rule the world? You need an Ivy League degree, or at least a prestigious JD from a highly-regarded law school.
Want a good corporate job? Get the least expensive state degree and accumulate your credits at JuCo. It’s a good route, I agree. But let’s not make it more than it is.
A trade, or an alternate degree (LVN? Etc.), poses just as cost-effective a route to a lifetime of decent wages and saving for retirement as the cheap degree route listed above.
The people that are really screwing themselves are those paying mega-bucks for what they could have gotten cheaper. After 3-5 years in the corporate world, nobody will care if your degree was from UT Austin or SFASU, or from LSU BR or LSU Alexandria.
And if you aren’t in the upper crust of society already, a degree from the most prestigious schools won’t (99.9% of the time) get you into the upper crust, anyway.
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HenryTo
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HenryTo
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| nodoodahs wrote: | | I think the issue here is that some people (Henry? LOL) are equating a higher-level traditional college degree with both intelligence and training. |
Bill, that's the problem. I don't. But other folks (especially the recruiters, as I mentioned in the two ad hoc commentaries) are, and unfortunately, they have legimate reasons for doing so (mostly cost-cutting and self-fish reasons). I know tons of folks without advanced degrees who would run circles around those with advanced degrees any day, especially at the management level and in the finance industry.
But now, you know why I went back to get my MBA/MPP degrees. The CFA certification wasn't sufficient to convince the recruiters (to rffrydr's point, we're "overeducated" as a population, but unfortunately, we may be getting the wrong kind of education). Even a local global macro economic research firm wants to hire an MBA! An MBA does not necessarily make you a good researcher (and certainly not a good trader), but it does promise them a person that at least knows how to use excel, can manage his/her own schedule, and possess basic reading and writing skills, etc.
As for the trades, I think I need to quantify this better. While your point is well-taken, my sense is that both the number of jobs and salaries in these trades are not growing as quickly as the rest of the job market, especially those with college and advanced degrees. Even pharmacists need a decent amount of biochemistry education - and it's a very competitive process, to boot. Interestingly, the number of mechanics in the US peaked in 2001 and has remained stagnant ever since (because of better-quality American-made cars?) - and it plunged with the rest of the economy starting last year. The number of plumbers has grown consistently, but it too plunged with the rest of the economy starting in 2007.
Food for thought for a slow weekend.
Best,
Henry |
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rffrydr
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: |
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No doubt--we are far, far over-educated as a country. Really, a college degree as become an extension of civil-rights--god given. And has been cheapened thereby.
Nobody knows how to use their hands anymore. And while a robot can perfectly place a head bolt doing the same on a 1996 Range Rover with a history of blown head gaskets is a different matter. It's take "feel" and experience.
Perhaps the most prestigious university in the world (as measured by its competitive entry ritual) ITT, puts freshmen, file in hand, on a workbench and challenges them to make a box. Results? Usually pathetic.
There is a vibrant manufacturing base in this country and finally we have policy behind it. We have oil and natgas in this country, (which are partly behind this turn) we need the skills to extract it. But if you don't understand compound interest and the rule of seven you're nowhere in this world. And on that diesel you were talking about, Bill, if that's one of the new Mercedes urea equipped super-sensored C-class--you're not going to fix it with a wrench alone.
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nodoodahs
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| rffrydr wrote: | | Those "trade" jobs aren't you're father's: Check out what 10 guys do in a steel mill these days. And train conductor? You'll need some computer literacy too, not to mention "system analyis." Build a house? It's code this and UTL that. Even the plummer is facing new challenges with radiant heat flooring systems and complex return piping, instant heat, water treatment....all those calcualtions! |
Never said that the trades weren't getting more complicated. Just said that the traditional "degree mill" college education is NOT, and probably won't ever BE, necessary for a trade job.
Metro Houston is asking for 20-40 credits to apply for EMT training. Get ‘em from JuCo. They’ll teach you what you need to know. The computer skills they need are OPERATOR skills for specialized equipment, it’s not even as complex as being a Network Admin or setting up your own WordPress installation. Many jurisdictions not even asking for college credits to apply.
Nurses and pharmacists have their own specialized “colleges” in addition to nursing degrees being available at some traditional college campuses.
Local machine shop here is bemoaning the lack of qualified candidates. He’s not pushing for the JuCo to add classes, he wants some emphasis on trades at the high school level. They’ll teach you. The guy running the CAD there? No college. He learned OJT, baby.
Those plumbing challenges are NOT new. Ever seen a New England boiler-heated home? Plumbers (and electricians) today are learning the same way they learned a generation ago, and a generation before that, from trade schools and apprenticeships.
Diesel mechanics? There’s a school for that. Also an apprenticeship program. No college degree required.
I think the issue here is that some people (Henry? LOL) are equating a higher-level traditional college degree with both intelligence and training.
We need to recognize that while a higher-level traditional college degree might IMPLY intelligence and training, it is not the ONLY source of training, and not the ONLY route for those with intelligence.
The other thing that’s being completely overlooked is the possibility of entrepreneurship at the non-technical level. We’re all college boys and on the Web, so we’re used to thinking about high tech and entrepreneurs, but let’s face it, for a lot of people, learning to be a short-order cook, saving money, moving up, and eventually owning their own Waffle House franchise is both a path to a good living, and a pretty darn good retirement package, to boot.
In the trades, the path is learning, saving, and then opening their own business in that trade. Selling it and the land it’s on is their retirement plan. Is that all the eggs in one basket? No more than corporate job with a 401k in the SP500 index fund is! But no college degree is required.
Don’t get me wrong; the degree route is a good route for a lot of people. I just think y’all are making it more than it is, and underestimating the non-degree route.
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rffrydr
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ....Going forward, any trade that has yet to be placed should go through an analysis that involves the People’s Bank of China. |
They may be closer than you think--as in, trading our market. I suspect alot of the FRE etc. trade-up this last quarter for example. Not the Bank per se...but it's follow through entities.
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HenryTo
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Diesel, I agree. I am going to discuss "Part II" in tonight's commentary. 
As rffrydr mentioned, the manufacturing plant of the 21st century will most likely hire five people with PhDs and a supercomputing programming background. I still think the traditional "waitress" will be replaced by an app like Microsoft Surface or a modern-day robot. The public policy option will again be on the table. |
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rffrydr
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ditch-diggers? Where? I had to dig most of my wall footings myself (and a backhoe  z0)....couldn't get the ukrainians to dig. Mexicans? Forget it. See "A Day Without a Mexican." Not to generalize, of course but labor is getting more and more selective.
Those "trade" jobs aren't you're father's: Check out what 10 guys do in a steel mill these days. And train conductor? You'll need some computer literacy too, not to mention "system analyis." Build a house? It's code this and UTL that. Even the plummer is facing new challenges with radiant heat flooring systems and complex return piping, instant heat, water treatment....all those calcualtions!
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nodoodahs
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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The world needs ditch-diggers, too!
BTW I would "advise" anybody not interested in a "hard" technical degree to skip college and learn a trade. Get whatever minimal number of credits you need to prove "intelligence" (since as Gary North convincingly writes, today college acceptance is used in lieu of workplace IQ testing, because colleges use proxies for IQ in determining acceptance) from a JuCo. Then get a trade.
Machinists. Welders. EMTs. Mechanics. All will be in demand, none really "need" formal, expensive degrees. Even nurses and pharmacists can get their "degrees" outside the halls of traditional "higher education."
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